Comments on: The huge problem of the clergy shortage that doesn't exist http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/ Adam J. Copeland Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:20:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: DennisS http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1312 DennisS Mon, 22 Dec 2008 05:58:32 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1312 Chris - in regard to the first call being outside the denomination... that isn't the intent of the Formula of Agreement between the PCUSA, RCA, ELCA, & UCC. But it can happen, and does happen. I'm ordained in the RCA, and took my first call in the PCUSA. I have the PCUSA pension and insurance as well. Minimum pay is higher in the RCA - at least in the middle of the country. I only had debt after my first degree, as I took a job, and then my employers paid for other degrees. When it came to the M.Div., the congregation where I served as an Elder helped significantly, a connection to a wealthy person helped, serving in a congregation through seminary helped, having an employed spouse helped, and funds set back for a rainy day took care of the rest. I'd like to see the debt payments made by the denomination if an ordained pastor serves in a place which is difficult to find a pastor (rural, small congregations). Chris – in regard to the first call being outside the denomination… that isn’t the intent of the Formula of Agreement between the PCUSA, RCA, ELCA, & UCC. But it can happen, and does happen. I’m ordained in the RCA, and took my first call in the PCUSA. I have the PCUSA pension and insurance as well. Minimum pay is higher in the RCA – at least in the middle of the country.

I only had debt after my first degree, as I took a job, and then my employers paid for other degrees. When it came to the M.Div., the congregation where I served as an Elder helped significantly, a connection to a wealthy person helped, serving in a congregation through seminary helped, having an employed spouse helped, and funds set back for a rainy day took care of the rest.

I’d like to see the debt payments made by the denomination if an ordained pastor serves in a place which is difficult to find a pastor (rural, small congregations).

]]> By: adamjcopeland http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1311 adamjcopeland Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:10:09 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1311 Thanks for the comments, Chris. Some of them get to the interesting point of how the denomination is connected to our seminaries. The seminaries don't seem to have -- practically speaking -- the same interests as do CPMs or PC(USA) movers and shakers. They are certainly in it to educate pastors, but not solely for the PC(USA) and certainly they have to think beyond the denomination's health if they want to thrive in 20 years. Just a thought. Thanks for the comments, Chris. Some of them get to the interesting point of how the denomination is connected to our seminaries. The seminaries don’t seem to have — practically speaking — the same interests as do CPMs or PC(USA) movers and shakers. They are certainly in it to educate pastors, but not solely for the PC(USA) and certainly they have to think beyond the denomination’s health if they want to thrive in 20 years. Just a thought.

]]> By: Chris Thomas http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1310 Chris Thomas Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:36:02 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1310 Well, this is one interesting Blog topic. I am currently under care in the Presbytery of Santa Barbara, Ca and am attending Fuller. I have applied to Princeton but did not get in. I don't know what to do because I cannot afford to keep paying for Seminary out of my pocket. I already have a ton of debt from my undergrad because I went to a private Christian college here in California. I cannot afford to accumulate more debt. If I do I will be quickly in the unhireable category for most churches. I think the problem is in our antiquated education system. The overhead seems to be too high for the PC (USA) to expect every trained minister to have an M.Div. This requirement leaves too many people looking for a first call who are seeking more money than churches can afford. I am not being down on wanting to educate your clergy, I think it is great, but how can we do it cheaper or at least support seminarians better. Two other things. First, I think the PC (USA) should be using experienced and new Pastors to plant churches across the nation. We need to include some kind of training program to equip some of the newly graduated seminarians to take up this task. Second is more of a question, I know you can be ordained PC (USA) but apply to work outside the denomination. Can you receive your first call outside the denomination and yet still complete the ordination process? This may provide places for some of the seminarians to go and get experience in their first years. I don't know but I am thoroughly frustrated with my prospects and am wondering why God would call me to such a situation. Thanks Adam for providing the conversation. Love in Christ, Chris Thomas Well, this is one interesting Blog topic. I am currently under care in the Presbytery of Santa Barbara, Ca and am attending Fuller. I have applied to Princeton but did not get in. I don’t know what to do because I cannot afford to keep paying for Seminary out of my pocket. I already have a ton of debt from my undergrad because I went to a private Christian college here in California. I cannot afford to accumulate more debt. If I do I will be quickly in the unhireable category for most churches. I think the problem is in our antiquated education system. The overhead seems to be too high for the PC (USA) to expect every trained minister to have an M.Div. This requirement leaves too many people looking for a first call who are seeking more money than churches can afford. I am not being down on wanting to educate your clergy, I think it is great, but how can we do it cheaper or at least support seminarians better.
Two other things. First, I think the PC (USA) should be using experienced and new Pastors to plant churches across the nation. We need to include some kind of training program to equip some of the newly graduated seminarians to take up this task. Second is more of a question, I know you can be ordained PC (USA) but apply to work outside the denomination. Can you receive your first call outside the denomination and yet still complete the ordination process? This may provide places for some of the seminarians to go and get experience in their first years. I don’t know but I am thoroughly frustrated with my prospects and am wondering why God would call me to such a situation. Thanks Adam for providing the conversation.

Love in Christ,
Chris Thomas

]]> By: Trent http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1309 Trent Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:42:33 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1309 This is very similar to the problems I have experienced with the United Church of Christ system. It's partly a problem of distribution, and partly a problem of inadequate preparation on the part of Church & Ministry Committees which fail to do the hard work of forming candidates for ministry, helping them to discern where they are called and how to work through the search & call system. Our system is almost identical to the PCUSA system, and it is very difficult for both candidates and congregations to tell much if anything about one another from the paperwork. A related problem is the failure of denominational staff to help search committees as they go through the process--many of them have never done anything like this before, and receive little guidance on how to go through the process. As a seminary graduate, I have spent over a year in the search process, and I know folks who have been searching for 3+ years. Even though I have not restricted my search geographically, that seems to do little to solve the problem. It's been my experience that search committees often are not willing to seriously consider candidates who are not geographically near them, because of the expense of bringing them in for an interview, especially in the case of rural churches, and because they simply don't know much about the seminary they attended or the region where they come from. It's much easier to go with someone closer to home. So, I don't really know what the answer is, but I think there does need to be a serious discussion at the national levels about how we're placing, or not placing, ministers in the 21st century. This is very similar to the problems I have experienced with the United Church of Christ system. It’s partly a problem of distribution, and partly a problem of inadequate preparation on the part of Church & Ministry Committees which fail to do the hard work of forming candidates for ministry, helping them to discern where they are called and how to work through the search & call system. Our system is almost identical to the PCUSA system, and it is very difficult for both candidates and congregations to tell much if anything about one another from the paperwork.

A related problem is the failure of denominational staff to help search committees as they go through the process–many of them have never done anything like this before, and receive little guidance on how to go through the process.

As a seminary graduate, I have spent over a year in the search process, and I know folks who have been searching for 3+ years. Even though I have not restricted my search geographically, that seems to do little to solve the problem. It’s been my experience that search committees often are not willing to seriously consider candidates who are not geographically near them, because of the expense of bringing them in for an interview, especially in the case of rural churches, and because they simply don’t know much about the seminary they attended or the region where they come from. It’s much easier to go with someone closer to home. So, I don’t really know what the answer is, but I think there does need to be a serious discussion at the national levels about how we’re placing, or not placing, ministers in the 21st century.

]]> By: Andy http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1308 Andy Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:14:23 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1308 The Clergy Effective Salaries study as of May 1, 2008 is here: <a href="http://web.pensions.org/Publications/pensions/Home/Forms%20%26%20Publications/Booklets%20%26%20Brochures/ClergyEffectiveSalaries_2009.pdf" rel="nofollow"> <b>Clergy Effective Salaries</b></a> The definition of Effective Salary is here: <a href="http://web.pensions.org/Publications/pensions/Home/Forms%20%26%20Publications/Booklets%20%26%20Brochures/pln-103.pdf" rel="nofollow"> <b>Understanding Effective Salary</b></a> The Clergy Effective Salaries study as of May 1, 2008 is here:

Clergy Effective Salaries

The definition of Effective Salary is here:

Understanding Effective Salary

]]> By: DennisS http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1307 DennisS Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:16:55 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1307 So, a first-call pastor making the minimum cash salary (with generous allowances) is above the mean and the median? That might be good for me, but it's a bit discouraging overall, as I know there are tall-steeple pastors making quite a bit more - which should skew the average. So, I'm going to have to guess that the statistics aren't full time equivalents, but includes the numerous pastors paid only part time. The statistics can likely be sliced and diced more so that a person can tell the average compensation for those in congregations of a specific range of membership, attendance, budget, etc. But I don't suppose those statistics will be put in a report readily available online. So, a first-call pastor making the minimum cash salary (with generous allowances) is above the mean and the median? That might be good for me, but it’s a bit discouraging overall, as I know there are tall-steeple pastors making quite a bit more – which should skew the average. So, I’m going to have to guess that the statistics aren’t full time equivalents, but includes the numerous pastors paid only part time.

The statistics can likely be sliced and diced more so that a person can tell the average compensation for those in congregations of a specific range of membership, attendance, budget, etc. But I don’t suppose those statistics will be put in a report readily available online.

]]> By: Mary Hess http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1306 Mary Hess Sat, 06 Dec 2008 23:41:58 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1306 I suppose this challenge is precisely one reason why we've shifted so much of our energy at Luther into what we call "missional leadership" -- and the effort to help all of us think about innovative and creative ways to reach out, rather than simply to "fill" past notions of what pastoral leadership could/should be. But it's an idea (missional leadership, that is) that is resisted on multiple levels, and if I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone at Luther disparage it, I'd be rich by now! I suppose this challenge is precisely one reason why we’ve shifted so much of our energy at Luther into what we call “missional leadership” — and the effort to help all of us think about innovative and creative ways to reach out, rather than simply to “fill” past notions of what pastoral leadership could/should be. But it’s an idea (missional leadership, that is) that is resisted on multiple levels, and if I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard someone at Luther disparage it, I’d be rich by now!

]]> By: adamjcopeland http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1305 adamjcopeland Sat, 06 Dec 2008 21:42:51 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1305 Good question, Dennis. The salary stats I cited include housing, car, etc. allowances; they are the median and average effective salary stats as compiled by the Board of Pension in 2007. Good question, Dennis. The salary stats I cited include housing, car, etc. allowances; they are the median and average effective salary stats as compiled by the Board of Pension in 2007.

]]> By: DennisS http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1304 DennisS Sat, 06 Dec 2008 05:35:06 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1304 How is that median salary figured? Cash salary? Cash salary plus 30% for those living in a manse? Cash salary, housing, pension, insurance, utilities, car allowance, reimbursed professional and educational expenses, etc? I take some great trips to educational events. This year I took the month of July off for personal and family vacations. Next year I'm going to India to preach at an annual conference, and to spend a couple weeks in mission. My cash salary was a little above the Presbytery minimum this year (26,500), and I have one of the largest "Professional and Educational" allowances around, as well as hefty allowances to take care of utilities and travel. All total, figuring the manse at 30% of cash salary, I receive over 55,700 in compensation. (All available to whomever is called here as co-pastor, as I hope to take a job such that I will be contributing to the church and not receiving any compensation.) I provide this info mainly because this blog is read by many currently in seminary, and who may be thinking that the small, rural congregations in the middle of country don't provide possibilities. Since I'm second career, I had funds saved up and didn't have to go into debt to go to seminary. And we've got significant equity in a home a couple hours away. (In 30 years we might retire back to the home we spent the first 14 years of married life in - the payments are made by a brother living there.) We've been blessed in so many ways. No doubt 2009 will bring many blessings as well. Prayers appreciated as I present some "out of the box" ideas to Session on Wednesday. How is that median salary figured? Cash salary? Cash salary plus 30% for those living in a manse? Cash salary, housing, pension, insurance, utilities, car allowance, reimbursed professional and educational expenses, etc?

I take some great trips to educational events. This year I took the month of July off for personal and family vacations. Next year I’m going to India to preach at an annual conference, and to spend a couple weeks in mission.

My cash salary was a little above the Presbytery minimum this year (26,500), and I have one of the largest “Professional and Educational” allowances around, as well as hefty allowances to take care of utilities and travel. All total, figuring the manse at 30% of cash salary, I receive over 55,700 in compensation. (All available to whomever is called here as co-pastor, as I hope to take a job such that I will be contributing to the church and not receiving any compensation.)

I provide this info mainly because this blog is read by many currently in seminary, and who may be thinking that the small, rural congregations in the middle of country don’t provide possibilities.

Since I’m second career, I had funds saved up and didn’t have to go into debt to go to seminary. And we’ve got significant equity in a home a couple hours away. (In 30 years we might retire back to the home we spent the first 14 years of married life in – the payments are made by a brother living there.)

We’ve been blessed in so many ways. No doubt 2009 will bring many blessings as well. Prayers appreciated as I present some “out of the box” ideas to Session on Wednesday.

]]> By: adamjcopeland http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2008/12/03/the-huge-problem-of-the-clergy-shortage-that-doesnt-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-1303 adamjcopeland Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:54:18 +0000 http://adamcopeland.wordpress.com/?p=642#comment-1303 Thanks for the comments, Sarah, though I'm sorry to hear about your position. Yeah, the money thing is a real issue, especially for us youngins with school debt and a spouse accumulating more! Two interesting stats re money. One, the average McDonalds manager makes $56,000. PC(USA) minister salary median is $49,000, average $53,662. I'm not even going to think about the similarities between managing a McDonalds and pastoring a church :) Thanks for the comments, Sarah, though I’m sorry to hear about your position. Yeah, the money thing is a real issue, especially for us youngins with school debt and a spouse accumulating more!

Two interesting stats re money. One, the average McDonalds manager makes $56,000. PC(USA) minister salary median is $49,000, average $53,662.

I’m not even going to think about the similarities between managing a McDonalds and pastoring a church :)

]]>