What use is a M.Div. ?
As my friend Brian put it, I’m now a “ seminarian* ” — the asterisk means I’ve completed all my courses but not yet graduated. Commencement is next Saturday, May 16. So as I look at it, I have about a week to reflect on this whole Master of Divinity thing before I get the paper that acknowledges, officially, that I have in fact mastered all things divine 
(Or as Megan looks at it, I have a week to pack.)
As the situation has it, I have the fun of task of searching for non churchy jobs with a M.Div. degree on my resume. For you pastor types out there, this may not seem difficult since we pastor types tend to think the M.Div. is a pretty tricky generalist degree that takes at least three years to earn (sometimes four depending on the seminary and denomination). Those lawyers spend three years and get a Juris Doctor, but we can spend four and get a piddly masters! That means the M.Div. is a big worthy respected masters degree. And on the one hand, that’s right. The M.Div. covers a huge amount of ground and is a formidable masters degree.
Let’s consider. In the last four years I’ve taken classes in Greek and Hebrew; read and practiced the latest in counseling methods; taken multiple courses in public speaking, rhetoric and public relations (we call them “preaching courses”); learned to analyze systems and communities; studied conflict management; investigated a variety of budgets large and small; gained a boatload of critical thinking skills; and learned to be more self-aware than, I dare say, most other masters degrees require.
Sure, the M.Div. as a generalist degree is very broad and very handy for life. I haven’t for a minute ever regretted my studies at Columbia, and Columbia Seminary especially has proved a darn good place to undertake them.
On the other hand, however, the M.Div., because of its generalist nature, does not really translate well into much outside the church. Sure, it sets a solid foundation for many activities, professions, and contexts, but it doesn’t quite order great respect in the marketplace. The M.Div. feels like another liberal arts degree — I loved to earn it, but I’m left with a bit of a let-down feeling when flipping through job postings. I think: I know I could do that job and that job — well, in fact — but the letters after my name don’t exactly back that up. The M.Div. is a hint in the right direction for many positions, maybe a wee nudge towards an interview, but it’s not a key that will magically open any door outside a church.
So as a seminarian* I’m really looking forward to graduation and earning my Master of Divinity degree. One day, perhaps, I’ll frame it and put it on my office wall. In the meantime, I’m wondering a lot about what that office wall will look like: a cubicle? a delivery truck? a church study? a classroom? an evergreen? Maybe plain old plaster or sheet rock.
So if you’re a would-be employer reading this, wondering if I’m qualified for your position even though I have an M.Div., simply ask me and I’ll explain. My studies included lessons in persuasion as well.
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I thought you were studying to become a pastor, Adam. What else is an M.Div for?
The pastor gig is certainly an option, Stushie, but I’m also seeing what else is available around Grand Forks. Who knows what other jobs I might be called to as I live out my greater call to support Megan. If I find something outside the church, I bet the M.Div. will show great worth in that occupation.
Adam, thanks for this. I have to consciously keep myself from getting very defensive about the relative worth of an M.Div, especially as my science/engineering friends earn 1.5-2 year masters and can’t figure out what I’m “still working on my Masters?!?!”.
I hope you’ll show up on Saturday May 16th… if you show up on the 19th, you will have missed the moment!
Thanks for that, Betsy. Will change the date: May 19, I start in Montreat. Peace.
love your line about the “greater call.” amen and blessings on both of you.
Challenging post.
Perhaps a bit offensive to those who passionately want to serve in their call to ministry, but are unable to go to seminary because of either the financial commitment or believe they are unable to do the academic work. But challenging most to those who have an M.Div. and have been serving in a congregational context but are having some doubts about their call.
Now that I’m back from India, I’m ready to seek employment outside the church, while still serving the Church. But as a second-career type, I have plenty of job experience to fall back upon – I’m not relying upon an M.Div. to get me in the door. I’ve got degrees in computers and business as well. It’s been a very good experience to serve Christ in a fulltime pastorate for the past four years. And my call here is not done. But my role is about to change, and this will challenge the congregation to be less pastor dependent, and more as Presbyterian congregations are meant to be – Elder led.
We will be starting a new gathering known as Core, which will be going beyond spiritual fruit to consider the seeds of faith (definitely looking beyond ourselves but considering spiritual fruit as the ground in which new seeds grow best). Music will be important, as this is where the song in the heart can make a huge difference in the hope and joy in our lives.
I certainly understand that new M.Div. graduates will be challenged in finding a call – and this can be anxiety producing. The process is so drawn out in seeking a call in a church context – it’s much faster to find employment elsewhere. And the reality is that many M.Div. grads will need employment elsewhere.
I truly wish we had a more significant debt-payment system for those who do receive a call to ministry. Even better would be to provide the education and housing at very little cost.
It seems such a joy that we have more completing seminary than openings calling for pastoral leadership. Now if we could expand our understanding of what is a validated call, then we could truly have more missionaries in the western world – where they are truly needed.
I love the energy of new graduates of M.Div programs. This is needed even more than doctrinal orthodoxy. But we put up so many hoops and roadblocks. We have a Session meeting on Wednesday night, and I have a lot of preparing and educating to do before that meeting. I hope the Elders will see the wisdom in changing my role and seeking to call a new seminary graduate. I guess there is no point in outlining all the reasons here on your blog – but I do see this as making an opportunity for an M.Div. student (or clergy couple) to gain valuable experience, as well as to bring new hope and energy to the congregation.
New M.Div. grads need to look a little further than just the official openings for first call pastorates. You might be surprised by the response of PNC’s at receiving a self-referral. Some will consider experience while in seminary to count towards the 2 year, or even 4 year, minimum experience that they put in the CIF. And don’t be afraid to put forward your best side. Getting an interview – especially face-to-face will significantly increase the chances of receiving a call. So, don’t overlook possibilities because you self-eliminate, nor downplay the level of experience that you already have. I’ve known some congregations to include experience as an Elder to be counted toward their stated level of experience desired.
Thanks for all those great comments, DennisS. Hope your travels to India were a blessing. Prayers for you and your session as you discern where God is leading your congregation.
I totally agree with many of your comments re first call candidates (and the way the presbyteries and congregations sometimes deal with us). I’d also add to the mix that the system still operates assuming individuals rather than couples are discerning God’s call together. Don’t know how to fix that, but it’s definitely an assumption of the system.
Peace to you and yours.
As a relatively recent graduate from seminary who is not yet a year into his first call, I recommend you take six months at the beach. I graduated from Louisville in 2006, did a one year internship at a church, and then took six months at the beach, living in a cheap hotel room one block off the surf, worked at a small bar/grille, swam, surfed, and read quite a bit, everything from Karen Armstrong to Jack Kerouac…the point is, I cleared my mind a bit…the trick is that I didn’t know it was a six month sabbatical, I thought I was just moving to the beach. After I returned back home, I ended up at the church I serve now and things worked out…but I still keep Surfer magazine on my favorites and a pic of where I lived (Flagler Beach at dawn) on my computer background…because southern Mississippi is no place to surf…just remember, if you are truly called, it will happen, and your M.Div and a buck (or two) will get you a cup of coffee.
Gene..
Surf?
I advise taking a two week trip to Grajagan. I have surfed over 20 years, in Kauai, Oahu, Maui, Molokai, Australia, Mexico, Florida, all over California…and I have to think through all those years to come up with a handful of days as good as just about every day of my 9 day trip to Grajagan.
Other than prison ministry and my daughter/family, surf gets me real fired up!
Email me if interested. pitts.special@yahoo.com
Shalom
Craig
cool?
I graduated from dear old CTS over 10 years ago now. Since then, it has crossed my mind a few times that the M.Div. degree was a conspiracy plot to make me useless to any organization other than a church – and sometimes not very helpful to churches either. I always come around to something, though – right now I’m pastoring a church, and I love it. It helps me to remember that it’s all part of some larger ever-changing thing called a call. But also to note that my favorite pastors are not hooked on church – or on what their M.Div will amount to – but on so many things in the larger world. They all have something else to which they are very committed – whether playing guitar in a band or blogging or writing books or surfing or a friendship with someone on death row.
Blessings for your own call, wherever it leads. (I really hope it might entail at LEAST six months at a beach!)
I know how you feel. I am attending dear old CTS right now and they actually told me NOT to pursue the Mdiv and to do the MA instead. LOL They basically said I lack “vocational clarity” but they thing is, they weren’t helping me gain any clarity through their program! I am two years in, 40 grand in debt and have a couple more classes to go for the MA… I am wondering, should I leave and go pursue the Mdiv elsewhere? And if I do, would it even make a difference?
Yeah, it was very interesting at CTS to see who would switch from the MDiv program to the MA, and vice versa. I would say that if you aren’t interested in ordained ministry, the extra debt from another year pursuing the MDiv may not be worth it. I’ve found that the MDiv is not particularly marketable, and perhaps a MA is more so (and it’s way cheaper). Re switching programs and moving to another school — I bet there’s no way all your classes would transfer so you’d be backing up your program and adding more time. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Blessings on your discernment.
I thought the M.Div. appeared to be useless to anything but the church. However, I found out that it is also very useful in the field of Social Services. Case work and case management, social evaluation, family counseling, and social intervention. In some cases there is work in the education field. But, it takes a lot of digging to find the right place and acceptence to make the M.Div. useful.
Dion M
Wow. This has been a very challenging post. I will graduate with an MDiv in Christian Leadership and an MA in Theology this December from Liberty. And I’m not sure what will be out there either in terms of churches. However, I have a great job right now as a General Manager for a non-skilled home care company, which I truly believe God is using to give me the skills needed to once day become an Executive Pastor. I have no desire to be a senior pastor, though I love preaching and studying the Word. But I know it will take time. I love some of the postings right now here in Michigan: Looking for an MDiv with 10 years experience. Not sure if I can get that 10 years experience while working full time and paying off student loans.
Thanks for making me think!
These comments are all great but the issue at hand has yet to be answered, how a M.Div. degree can be used to in the civil job market apart from the church. Having to repay an 80k education note is very difficult to do on a minister’s salary/stipend. The majority of employers look upon a M.Div. degree as a red light.
All these posts made me wonder if there might be an unrecognized need in the business world for people with a global perspective on ethics. This might be especially applicable to second career MDivs like me, whose industries spun out of control while we were in seminary!
I am in the exact same boat up here in Toronto. I did my three years full time and now I just have three random courses to finish up and I am scared as all get out! Thinking of 40K in debt, paying that off adn then livin off a pastors salary or rather fundraising for my existence seems quite daunting. And I also wonder how well a M Div transfers over into the work force outside the church an quite terrified because I may not be called as a pastor. So I am right now looking for a job, wondering if should have just taken a MSW or gone to college or something! Thank you for posting this, Im thinking the same things….
Speaking as a recent M.Div recipient and current job-seeker myself, I have to agree that the current situation is extremely disheartening and, in my own case, heading quickly toward dire. I have been sending out resumes and cover letters to social service agencies and non-profit organizations (including churches) for six months now and getting practically no response– an occasional form letter acknowledging my application and urging me to continue applying for other positions while they review my paperwork is the rare exception. In most cases, we’re talking about complete radio silence. I could probably be content with some menial, entry-level position in the extra-ecclesial sector, but I haven’t been able to get a response out of those HR managers either.
Most days, I can’t blame them. The combination of my education and work experience (all in churches or faith-based organizations) pretty much certifies me as a religious nutcase to most potential employers, and simultaneously under- and over-qualifies me for nearly every job posting I see. (e.g., Yes, I have a degree, but it’s in the wrong subject.)
When looking at job postings, I frequently find myself thinking, “Shoulda gone to accounting school, or studied computers, or quit seminary before I got the degree!” Not because I’m passionate about computers or naturally gifted or even interested in accounting, but because it is becoming increasingly obvious that doing what I love will not pay the bills. Having spent all this time and energy and money on an education I can’t use, how now brown cow?
As you say, if given the chance, I could probably prove myself and my employment value to many organizations in very short order. The problem is, “the chance” does not seem to be what comes first in the process. Lord knows I have spent hours crafting cover letters that demonstrate all the important, valuable, and highly transferable skills I have developed and how they will undoubtedly benefit Employer X, Y, or Z in obvious and innumerable ways… but so far, nobody’s buying it.
And frankly, I find myself at a loss for a next step.
My own sob story aside, I have long suspected that the institutional church as currently organized will not survive this century. Pastors, preachers, ordained people of whatever title (particularly in the mainline denominations) will be forced to live out their vocation and do their holy work without stipend as more and more congregations find themselves aging, declining in membership, and unable to sustain the level of donations required to maintain buildings, salaries and benefits packages, AND the programming/outreach efforts that qualify a church as a tax-exempt non-profit organization, much less a bonafide flowering of the Kingdom In The World. National bodies and regional groupings such as dioceses, conferences and presbyteries are already having to streamline and reorganize, since their budgets tend to depend on assessments from parishes, too.
The church will still need leadership, of course. But I foresee that being called and being paid will be completely separate notions, no matter one’s particular call to ministry. I like to imagine these sorts of closures making tentmakers of us all– even PhD’s, if the seminaries close!– and bringing about a certain equalization among the Baptized. Sadly, even *that* fantasy presumes job openings and easily obtained employment! [sigh]
Well, all your posts are very interesting. I came upon this blog in search of what I could do with my M.Div degree overseas – but as it turns out – the grass is not greener on the other end, only seems like the water account is higher (hahahaha). Well, here in South Africa you can only become a minister with a M.Div. That is the minimum degree you need for being a minister in our denomination (protestant). The shocking is that even if you qualify with a doctorate or how many other theology degrees from where ever – your salary will not be higher or lower in income than others. Also, after the first 8 years, you will reach your max income for ever! Hey, be real – you still have 40 or so years left after that! Where is the motivation? Don’t get me wrong – I HAVE a Passion for the ministry, but if I can’t eat, I can’t survive and I can’t minister well – logic! In South Africa, according to stats – theologians (M.Div or degree of this stature) is the degree that earns the least for the longest education years in comparison with all other types of jobs or qualifications.
Just thought I let you know, we are the same here in SA.
Regards and Strongs!
I will be completing my business degree at the end of this year and have been strongly considering getting my MDiv afterwards. I have over 10yrs of ministry experience and as an adult student I have my work experience to fall back on. From my research there appears to be various non-church related jobs for individuals with a MDiv degree. I would strongly consider chaplaincy as a good avenue to venture whether it be in the military, hospital or prison. My main concern is that at 525 dollars per credit hour how i expect to make a living doing what i love. My choice is between a MDiv or a JD. My heart says MDiv while my mind says JD. Advice anyone?
Hi,
This interests me as I will start Union Theological Seminary in the fall. Today, I don’t know exactly where the experience will lead. I try to avoid the impulse to over plan my career right now, so that in the future if some authentic realization about my career occurs it does not go unnoticed. That said, I do still worry about the future. One option that seems to be open to all MDiv grads(under 42y/o I think) that have some ecclesiastical endorsement is military chaplaincy. There is significant need for chaplains and to me it seems at first glance like a wonderful opportunity, though I would never have imagined myself as a military person even a couple of years ago.
To me this is very comforting. I am not going to Seminary with a clear goal to become a minister. Perhaps I am too skeptical of the determinism behind being ‘called’. To me the call could be answered by a variety of paths. I’m intrigues when people are called to leave particular positions and enter others. For me it’s a broad push towards finding God/goodness/divinity and articulating or utilizing the truth that is found. Sometimes I think it’s just personal preference and choice attributed falsely to being a call. This may seem flaky to the sure-hearted out there. I apologize for taking a tangential turn here, so I will back track and end with the question I intended to ask, after I have already given a partial answer to it: Has anyone considered Military (or hospital) chaplaincy?
Hi,
My dad was a Army Chaplain for over 20 years. He loved it. He just retired . He would not trade his tine for anything. I am looking at ministry and trying to decide if that is what God wants for me but I do have lots of information about it if you are interested.
I have both a M. Div. and D. Min. from accredited seminaries. I have been a parish pastor for over 20 years. Simply put, one has to “like this vocation.” I have found that neither of my degrees will get me a job in higher education nor social work/counseling because these fields are becoming increaslingly “Credentials and Degree Specific.” Most of my friends who leave the ministry will work for some nonprofit or church agency as a fundraiser or community spokesperson.
I do fear that we are living in the last days of the formal theological education degrees for church ministry. Few congregations can call a pastor with debts into the 40K areas on up. [Mainline] Denominations seem to be slowly crumbling as they take on hot button social issues, which prompt the exodus of traditional members. I am already “moonlighting” as a tutor to make ends meet.
My counsel is to REALLY examine one’s calling to parish ministry before applying for an M. Div. program. My M. Div. degree was pretty brutal in terms of academic requirements and candidacy committee “hoops.” Aside of Hospital, possibly Military chaplain jobs, only “Home Depot and Wal-Mart or the local bank” has been willing to hire my colleagues who have suddenly left the clergy roster.
Yet, I do not regret earning my M. Div. degree! I would do it all over again if given the choice.
Hi,
Interesting blog post. Glad you still have comments open. I’m an Episcopal Priest, have an M.Div and have been ordained three and a half years now. When I originally started my seminary program in an MA track thinking of going on to get an academic Ph.D. At one point, I seriously considered doing a joint M.Div/J.D. degree, but couldn’t figure out how to make it work at the time. Looking back, I was too impatient. I love pastoral ministry, but I have come to believe that the pay-for-pastoral care system that most oldline protestant denominations have set up is untenable on both practical and spiritual grounds.
It is unsustainable on practical grounds because fewer and fewer congregations are able to pay a livable wage. On top of that, fewer and fewer Christians are formed well enough in the faith to understand why that’s important (I’m ashamed by the number of times I’ve heard people in the church say “why are we paying ________ so much, they should be willing to do this for [much less] since it’s their calling.”). I appreciate the way you framed your responsibility to your wife as a “greater calling.”
The model is unsustainable on spiritual grounds because it warps the pastoral relationship in an age like ours where people believe they ought to have some control over you if they pay your salary. It makes it more difficult to make necessary pastoral decisions, or lead a congregation in a healthy direction when money is an issue. It discourages the sort of prophetic leadership that is the only hope of many declining congregations.
Because of these things, I’m considering going back to school, not for a Ph.D as I once thought, but for a J.D., in the hopes of being a bi-vocational pastor and church planter while serving God in all I do.
The problem is not just in getting a job outside the church, but also inside the church. I graduated with an MDiv 5 years ago and have been supporting myself outside the church with my BS degree and working 60 hours/week. The judicatory considers the MDiv to be insufficient for ordination and is requiring a unit of CPE and more learning experience in the church. I am single and spent every cent I had to go to seminary so taking a leave of absence from my job to do CPE or even adding an addition 20 hours/week to the 60 I already work is not a good option. Bivocational ministry is also problematic for single people since there are no insurance benefits for part-time positions. Chaplaincy is not a possiblitity for me since it would require even more CPE. So 10 years and unbelievable debt later, I am still doing a job I hate just to survive.
Hi Adam, thanks for the post!
As a fellow seminarian* I feel the frustration. I believe there are two parts to this, the first, that enrollment in M.Div programs vary. Academic background is not a declining factor. With this being said, the second piece I believe is very important, that the undergrad degree is more important than the M.Div. If I were an employer I may be impressed with an M.Div if the person had the right undergrad and work experience. An M.Div on it’s own does not and should not be a qualifing degree for hire.
I wish all of you best of luck. I got my MDiv in 2003 after six years, but left ministry and the denomination I was serving in 2007 after an endless parade of bs on the part of the higher ups. I agree with you all about how disheartening it is to find something out there, and I’ve experienced that difficulty myself time and again. Now, I’m preparing to move from San Antonio to Houston, in the hope of finding something better than the call center/customer service work I’ve been doing. If you’re getting desperate, you might seriously consider CSR/Call center work; there are lots of openings, and for once the MDiv is no barrier. I’m still holding onto it as a backup, but hope to get into something better, such as HR work or Medical billing, once I move.
I’m a current UMC seminary student and have just recently come to the realization that I may not always have the church to rely on for my income. I can understand everyone’s concern. My Ugrad degree is also in Christian ministry so that doesn’t help at all. I really wish that I had someone to point me in a different direction entering college. I think one remedy of this would be for divinity schools to start offering more dual degrees. This would give those called into ministry a chance to earn another degree while allowing div schools a chance to survive.
All in all, I think that being a “working priest” is a more liberating/effective approach. It takes a lot of the pressure off of the pastor/priest and will “force” more responsibility onto the congregation. For better or for worse, the congregation usually views the minister as the professional Christian who takes care of the church, something that we are all called to do.
Peace
Great post Adam! I’m in my third year of an M.Div and am starting to think about what’s next. I’ve heard it said that all you need for ministry is 10 people who take tithing very seriously–technically your salary would be the average of your congregation’s! I’d have to get a few more chairs before starting a basement church.
I’ve been told that the M.Div is the wave of the future as more and more organizations are realizing that there is a spiritual dimension to what they do. Recent field placements in my program have been at a Gender Relations Center (a resource and programming office on gender and identity issues, not a dating service!), an office of alcohol and drug education, and a community learning center working in restorative justice. Hang in there and you’ll get to put that biblical Hebrew to good use!
Peace
Great posts. Very interesting and sad.
I graduated with my M.Div in 2003 from a Baptist (won’t name it) seminary. Ended up getting hired locally at a United Methodist Church (not through the UMC hirearchy. I got in the “back door.”), because the UMC would not hire graduates from that particular seminary. Not many Baptist churches of my particular Baptist flavor would hire me either. Why? I was openly egalitarian and honest about it, and my denomination frowned on women in ministry. 2 years in that Methodist church left me certain I did not want to work in a church setting again. Too much hierarchical, political b.s., too high of expectations and too few dollars to support a wife and three kids.
Now I am working three part time jobs and trying to finish a second masters in communication. Fortunately, I worked at the seminary full time while I worked on my M.Div, so it was free. So is my second masters. I have also looked at various full time career options and share the frustrations many of you are feeling. Sometimes I wish I would have been born an electrical engineer. Useful to everyone and highly compensated. Perhaps I will go back to truck driving when my kids are graduated and out of the house. If I go back on the road, I will likely make twice as much as I made in the church and have health insurance. lol.
My heart goes out to each of you. I can sense your love of God & the gospel of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. I have been in the pastoral ministry for many years…beginning back in the 70′s in one of the largest churches in Indiana. From there it was always smaller congregations which required a secular career on my part to sustain my family. There was a time when only the smaller, lesser known denominations had working pastor’s & ministers. Now mainline denominations struggle to support their minister with an adequate salary. I really don’t know what you younger people are doing to fulfill your call…& yet keep the food on the table. It makes me want to pray.
Bless you all,
RJ
Hello, I feel your pain, I graduated in May 2010. I have yet to find a job. I think I will re-vamp my resume and leave off the M-Div. It almost makes you both under and over qualified for the job market..When the job recruiter ask what I am lookinf for in terms of employment, I begin to studder because I have know experience in the types of work I hope this M-Div will bring. All of us had certain expectations of the income we thought a graduate degree would bring; but it’s not panning out. I have faith in God. I don’t believe God led any of us to follow him and then leave us hanging. I pray that we all have a committment to God’s people and love for neighbor. Each of us is called to a certain kind of ministry and it all starts with love. I pray that each of you finds the job of your dreams. I do agree that every one should have a marketable skill set before entering seminary. Some of my friends recieved dual degrees, one marketable and then the M-Div. If I would have only known.-Hang in there, I know the Lord will provide. Sara
hey i want to be theological professor but i dont know what to do after M.Div. so guys if anyone could help in this subject would be a great help to me. and the thought of getting a M.Th. from India is the plan is that of any help to get to the point i need to??? hope you will respond as i have no body to guide me in this perspective….
Praise to be God who keeps us safe…
i cam accross this today (Jan. 6, 2011) and noticed it originated in May of 2009. Judging by all the comments, things are not getting any better. I am a 1999 M.Div. graduate and did not depend on my denomination for a job but had to start out as youthpastor with M.Div. and worked as Associate pastor and served multiple churches. I am now a senior pastor but still struggle month-to-month because of debt from going to seminary. If I left the ministry today and tried to get a job in anything but the church, I might as well go back to what I did before I got my BA. But even getting a better ministry job within the ‘church’ arena is increasingly more difficult. I’ve seen, over the past 12 years, an increas of churches hiring ‘specially skilled/experienced’ individuals to do ministry jobs. Jobs that used to be positions held by M.Div. graduates are now served by many tech./music/education trained individuals (many even without BAs). Even though I am ordained and am very glad I got my M.Div., if I wanted to go into ANY other line of work, other than leading a church, I might as well go back to a trade school for what I’d want to do. And whatever that may be, it too would most likely require 10+ years experience also. Meanwhile we will all be expected to get by on minimal salaris, decreasing benefits and living in a world where the prices of everything doubles and triples. I kept reading posts and realized it is now Jan. of 2011 and I’d love to know what the original post of May of 2009 is actually doing now.
excuse me, it Feb. not Jan. lol
Wow-this is an interesting blog! My M/Div has proven to be everything indicated thus far- broad-based, lots of useful skills, and virtually a red flag to every prospective employer. I worked for the last 2.5 years as an auto maintenance tech. Earned my ASE certifications, but find that it still works best to stay in the arena of basic maintenance. Sadly, that does not enable me to focus much on people contact. I really miss that part of ministry. Right now, I’m looking aggressively into re-tooling at age 53. As Sara mentioned above, I’m sure that God has not brought us to this point to leave M/Div recipients hanging out in the wind. I’ve thought trying to start a support group of M/Div’s and ex-clergy in the central Iowa region. There seems to be a lot of people out there, hurting in silence.
God give us guidance and peace as we search in the confidence that our God will supply all our needs!
So they say there are no coincidences! I set aside this weekend to make my final decision about MDiv or MACS (Masters of Arts in Christian Studies) with a second Masters in Social Work. And this fantastic blog showed up to my query “careers with an MDiv”. LOL! All my left brain cogitating gets me no where. I return again and again to the “call”.
Maybe we are witnessing the crumbling of yet another pillar. We COULD be on the cutting edge of making God relevant to a world that feels as though it is slipping into chaos. Maybe we need to realize we are not alone with our fiscal/vocational discontent: these are unparalleled times.
Most of all I need to remember that we will never be abandoned.
Adam: what ARE you doing now?
Thanks, Ruminating in NC. Blessings on your discernment. My updated info is here, http://www.adamjcopeland.com/about/ Peace. Adam
Hi Joel,
I think you raise a good point in asking what everyone is doing. After finishing my MDiv I looked for a short-term job while waiting a call. I got offers from banks and financial institutions but nothing that I was hoping for, (Government!). Then again, I have an undergrad in business.
I sure wished I knew before I started the degree that a M.Div would get me a life of unemployable skills, the need to return to school to find another career path and not having enough money to do so….
Yes, I am glad I have the degree just so I can say I accomplished it…although it would have been more practical and beneficial for survival to have gone to medical school (it would have taken less time than the M.Div)….and I could be helping others, earning money and paying back the student loans.
So here I sit, 5 years later, still searching for a job and answers on the comment question of the day…..What jobs/career paths are available to those with an M.Div?
Well…there is 4 things I wanted to share about this:
1-) The Fact that having an M.Div is not a reliable source for a financial living is a good thing. This deters a lots of individuals who are not really called or who do not really care for the conviction. I know this empirically, I am in the Military chaplaincy. You would get amazed the amount of unconvicted / “funny”, spiritual void, inmatured, untrained, and christian doctrine illiterated chaplains there is. I am talking about individuals who cant even tell you what the word “Gospel’ means!….the reason? ….the amount of perks and salary incentive available!
Unfurtunually this is typical for ministerial settings in which cash flows in every direction, this is just natural, it atracts individuals who are not really called and made for the ministry and are just looking for a way to make a living! (I also know many God lead, Christians chaplains who are serving well and who are in the military chapliancy truly under personal conviction and not for the perks and $)…bottom line, God has his way to keep out of M.Div to those who should not be there.
2-) for those who are for the rigth reasons and struggle, my remedy is to get a second career / trade. pastored 3 Souther Baptist churches in 13 years, Undergraduate in Ministry as well and Mdiv….the difference is that I realized that some times you have to be in the business of “tent making” in order to survive just like Paul…lol lol lol dont stick to only ministry, thats a huge mistake!!! specially if you have a family to support and MORE specially if your denomination holds a congregational type of church goverment!!!! lol lol lol have you thought that any sunday 50% + 1 and your job is over???? lol lol lol
3-) I question the wisdom of those who goes to seminary and then gets out totally endebted! specially with a seminary degree!!! your seminary should not allow you to make that type of desitions in the first place! (neither you) lol lol lol I did a lot of work study and it took me 7 years to complete my M.Div which was all in residence courses, Reformed seminary of 97 credits hours!!! the long and difficult path!!!! and it took me 7 years to finish it ….precisely because I did not want to incur in any debt taking classes I couldnt pay for and besides i needed to keep my full time secular job!….rememeber, this is not REAL COLLEGE where you make a secular career and then you will have a competitive paying and stable job to pay for your bills afterwards….this is MINISTRY! lol lol lol lol so if you are are starting out already endebted..stop it …..you are already in the wrong direction ….and so help you God! lol lol lol
4-) i know this is a hard one, but if you know you already have it hard, dont make it even harder for yourself and your familly…..my fellow pastor-friend dont stop of having more and more children…..The brother ministers in a congregational type of church goverment, is always complaining about loosing his job, he is also an M.Div holder, and he keeps on inpregnating his wife!!!! 6 kids!!!! lol lol lol …..remember this…..no many churches can take the responsability of a “Jonathan Edwards” familly size anynmore! ……they know that the poor pastor would have to be asking the board every years for more and more money to feed and provide health insurance for his familly….is crazy. lol
Bottom line is this, my comments are hard, but is the reality of ministry, if anybody wants to dedicate his life to the ministry, needs to be able to make adjustments and accomodations to his personal life even from the beguining.
blessings
Dear friends,
Thank you very much for all your comments. I stayed up until after 4 a.m. last night, and read nearly every post. I have a B.S. in Ministry and Leadership and started in the M.Div. last Fall. I am now in the process of changiing from an M.Div. to a M.A. in Practical Theology. Some of the reasons for my decision were: Lenght of M.DIV., and financial burden after (debt).
Another issue that influenced my decision was the fact that in my area, there are a few Christian colleges offering degree completion programs, and of course, the requirement to teach would be a Master’s degree. This is something some of you may consider; maybe teaching at a college that offers degrees to working adults (degree completion), you might able to teach online, without havinig to relocate. Just a thought.
Also, I would like to offer a few other ideas:
1) Have any of you considered going for a degree in education? We all know that ministry is closely related to education, so some of you may be able to go for a Doctor of Education degree and be able to teach maybe at traditional colleges and even seminary.
2) If you desire to continue your education and not incur in any more debt, I would encourage you look for solid, respectable foreign degrees. For example, in South Africa, there are a few instituions that offer PhD. and/or ThD. for a fraction of what it would cost to do it in the U.S. or Europe. Some of the schools offering such degrees are: University of South Africa, University of Pretoria, and South African Theological Seminary. If you do a google search, you will find that there are many professors teaching at accredited seminaries in the U.S. and abroad who hold degrees from some of these institutions.
I would humbly encourage you to turn your eyes upon Jesus, walk close to Him, and allow Him to lead you with His nail-pierced hand. Again, thank you all for your sincere comments. I hope my comments are of some help.
1 Timothy 1:17.
I am about to start my Mdiv and before I applied I did a little search n this page came up and I have been reading all the comments since the first post. At first I was discouraged abt the Mdiv but then I prayed about and I decided to do it anyway because I know God wants me to do it. I am abt to start Mdiv now and I revisited this page just out of curiosity and this is the best comment I have seen so far. I was reading the other comments and I was wondering, why is it that none of these Mdiv holders thought about working in education. My plan when I finish is not necessarily to work only in church but also as a lecturer and counselor. My undergrad is in Psychology, which I believe goes really well with ministry and I am planning to do a doctorate in Psychology, if not education.
So, so very glad to read these posts. Thought I was alone in this! Wow! I got my M.Div. in 1997, ordained in 1999, and have served 3 churches as sole pastor since. All small churches. I’m a woman pastor and 1/2 our churches in my denom. are still closed to me though the denom. is very supportive (churches are autonomous). My last call process to move to find my current church took 3 years and that was average in 2008. Last year I started my D.Min studies thinking I cannot remain in this salary much longer (small rural church) and need to step up, hoping it will help. This past month I’ve hit bottom realizing my situation will not improve, and all that is joyless in my life and all that needs fixing, can’t be fixed as long as I stay in parish ministry. Opted out of SS, low income, no spouse, no familiy, no personal support system and a declining church saying they only have money for me for another 1.5 years. I’ve decided enough is enough. I also beleive that in this era I can be more efffective for the kingdom of God by not being a pastor than being one. The lost are not looking to the church any longer for spiritual guidance and the church is no longer looking to the pastor for leadership. So what’s the point?!
As for other jobs… I (we’ve) got to get creative! I’m very much an entrepreneur type and have many ideas. First, you need an emotional support group. But then, consider your skills! Do you konw just about any one can get credentialed to officiate a wedding? I just made a brochure and will take it to all the area banquet centers. Then… so few people are comfortable public speaking. With the gift of preaching, what about the keynote speaker circuit? Motivational speakers? You need 3 or 4 topics of “expertise” and a certain number of “paid” engagements. There are associations to belong to. I have a few pre-seminary years in the banking system. There is a growing need for financial/business “assistants” to help the elderly one-on-one. Then also, is there a craft or specialty item you make – there are always the craft fair circuits. They are not sustaining incomes by any means, but at this point, I’m not only looking to make a living, but to make a new life!
I appreciated the above commenter about having a large family. I agree. It is seen as deterrant to churches these days. But may I add, that as a single person… it’s equally devistating as they think you don’t “need” the same income. Most clergy couples have the other spouse also working but I dont’ have that help and my church frowns upon me taking on extra work that would make me unavailable to them 24/7. And not to mention that while too many children is viewed as undesireable, so is being single. AND…. dear seminarian women…. the sad fact is… if you are male and unmarried entering your first church, you’ll likely be married in 2 to 3 years. But if you are female and unmarried entering your first church, you’ll likely never marry. Not for wanting to either. The logistics are unfair but definately a problem. I’m just sayin!
I’m grateful to my denom. in that they are sending me to a career counseling agency. I alsohaven’t dismisssed the idea of church planter. But I’m facing a very scary uncertain future adn am one breath away from being homeless. I trust God’s provision. Mankind’s economic system… not so much!
Wow! I know the feeling. I have my M.Div. “04″ and though I feel called of God, I have no position. Feeling God closed that door I was accepted into Nursing school. Thought I could serve God as a RN. Well, today that door slammed shut on me, as I missed passing mental health by .5pts.and have beed dismissed from the school. I am still seeking where God will put me, yet at the same time I need to make a living. So I wait. Please lord, show me where I need to go.
I have read through this blog and it has brought several concepts to my mind in which I haven’t thought about. I currently have a BA in Social Science and for a while I was contemplating doing and MDiv while being a youth pastor with the AOG. God told me, “No” and I found myself back in my small hometown in Northern California. God used that situation and directed me towards being a Deputy Probation Officer. Anyone who knows me knows that my heart is for the ministry. I’ve been prophesied over since I was a young boy that I would “reach the nations,” and yet at first glance it doesn’t appear as though that is possible being locked into a probation officer position for atleast three years.
I had many physical, mental, and emotional challenges to overcome while in college and it ended up taking me 7 years to finish my BA. One of those challenges was when I was dropped from my Bible university due to liability and cost of suddenly developing nocturnal seizures at age 20 that were out of control. The university didn’t like the idea of me being in the dorms and having to call the ambulance on a regular basis. Despite this I went back to school and worked my way through an AA while working and having 1-3 seizures a week. Eventually, the seizures settled to occurring less often and I was able to finish my BA at Sac State University.
I bring this up because I want to point out that yes I had major maturity because of this situation. Yes my faith is stronger than it has ever been. And yes, I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything. Even upon completing my BA I returned home depressed for finishing my degree because I couldn’t find a job worthwhile to my degree, but I trusted God. I knew that there was no debt so big that I could incur both spiritually and physically that He couldn’t take care of, something I learned from the hardships in college.
I told God I wanted a job to pay my loans off within two years because I didn’t feel right going into the vocational aspect of ministry expecting the church to pay off my debt. God, being who He is heard my plea and opened the door to going into probation, a job I never even thought of. How did He open this door? By a chance meeting with a guy in a beanie and a big beer in his hand at a Shell gas station who happened to be the Chief of the county probation department. I find myself 7 months later after turning down several other jobs, following the doors God kept opening, hired as a deputy probation officer–an 8-5, m-f job with full benefits and a good pay.
I guess I bring this up because you all have presented a wonderful topic here that has touched on many valid inconsistencies within the modern church institution, issues which need to be addressed. But there is something bigger than the institution that I trust in and will never fail no matter how bleak life can get, and that is God. All of you who are still reading this post be lifted up and know that He will not leave you nor forsake you. He knows the hurts of your heart and He desires to see you lifted up and blessed, praising His name. I pray you all may stay focused on the one who guides you. For the steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. Do not be afraid of stumbling, do not be afraid to walk in the dark when you cannot see for the Lord your God orders and directs your path.
Love ya’ll and I pray God blesses you immensely and provides you will the longings of your heart.
What a fascinating discussion. I am in my first year at Iliff. I have an undergrad in physical therapy and MA in Psych – I am licensed in both PT and counseling. I have felt called for many years and finally surrendered. Logically, this choice makes very little sense – looking at the 10 yr plan to an MDiv and primary wage earner for family. I not feel called to be a senior pastor. While the end of the line not well-defined, I expect I will end up teaching/writing/speaking and perhaps heading up adult religous ed somewhere. This is completely a step of Faith – may just turn out to be a few more letters after my name?! Somehow I think not. I appreciate the balance between heart and head in this discussion and hope we can continue to update and share ideas on what the heck to do with this degree!
I came across this blog after looking aroudn the web for M.Div. programs. It’s interesting that most of the comments here revolve around paying off student debt – this used to be a peculiarly US afflication/phenomenon, but of recent years my country of birth (Australia), my country of history (England) and my adopted country (The US) have reached a degree of parity in lumbering students with debt.
I have felt increasingly compelled to formalize my studies in theology – for the past 6 years or so I have listened to just about every christian lecture series available from http://www.thegreatcourses.com (check them out, pretty cool). I am looking at Northwestern college here in MN to do a MA theological studies and then an MDiv. The difference between me, and many of you, is that I also have a Bachelor’s of Nursing, post-grad qualifications in Cardiology and Psychiatry, a graduate certificate in Management, an MS in business administration and a PhD in Strategic Marketing and International Business Operations. Currently, I work in clinical research for medical device companies and get paid pretty well. I am also foruntate in that I did not incur much debt to do the nursing stuff and paid it off very quickly, and the other things I got various employers to pay for.
Making students pay for their education is a double edged sword – you make them responsible yes, and force them to do things other than basket-weaving, but you also increasingly “vocationalize” university education, that is, “education” which should be about teaching you how to think (in whatever field) turns into “training” which is designed to get you a job. I feel for you guys, because, no, you probably aren’t ever going to life comfortably as a minister of the gospel. Here’s one thing I do know though – God is faithful. If He called you into this, it’s HIS responsibility to make it all work out. Now, that “working out” might not be in the manner you expect or desire – and in fact it often isn’t – but work out it will.
I have had my share of tough times too, just in case you’re tempted to think I don’t understand your situation. In the past three years I’ve been dismissed cause, had to drain the kids college funds, had to sell the cabin I’d just finished building with my own hands, sell off all my toys and hobbies at a loss of tens of thousands of dollars, take money out of a severely depressed 401K at massive tax penalty rates – and a bunch of other really horrible things besides. In short, it has been financial and emotiona hell, and I have only just gotten this job Icurrently have (and I hate it (but am glad to have it!)).Here’s something I learnt through all this – God always came through, usually at the last moment, but ALWAYS.
If He has called you, listen to Him – don’t care for the things of this world, and certainly don’t worry about them. Set your mind on things above. Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven. Have no thought for the morrow – sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. These are not platitudes, they’re His word.
In short – be encuraged! Be happy! Don’t worry about this stuff! Seriously, I’ve probably got 20-25 years on most of the people on this page and I have learnt these lessons the hard way. May God richly bless you in all that you do and grant you His peace.
You have to have a M.Div to become a Board Certified Chaplain by APC.
I earned my MDiv in December 2006. I have yet to find a pastorate that is able to pay the bills. I have found, as many on this thread have found, that the MDiv is mostly useless in terms of getting a job outside of professional ministry. In order to have an income that pays the bills, Seminary graduates need transferable skills. I have recently entered into an HVAC program to give myself the skills necessary to go into either bivocational ministry, or church planting.
Just trying to summarize the blogs I have read: 1) churches do not pay adequately. Must seek another vocation in addition to the pastorate in order to make ends meet. To that end a marketable degree in addition to an M.Div. or vocational training is a big help. Seek either. 2) An M.Div. is useless to secular organizations.
bottom line: don’t be ignorant of what an M.Div. degree can provide for you. You need to be able to provide for yourself so prepare yourself accordingly.
This sucks. I am coming to the very end of my undergrad degree and am realizing that it is impotent to provide: a bachelor’s degree in Christian Ministry.
I grew up pretty comfortable: my mom was a teacher and my dad a college recruiter. Now it seems like I will have to either get further education or settle for poverty and job insecurity.
I was looking into getting a M.A. in Marriage and Family Counseling but honestly that looks like it is just about as unprofitable as an M.Div. from what I have read. Basically you need to obtain as much licensure after the degree as you can and that can be a difficult process.
Honestly what about chaplaincy? I have a family friend who works as a chaplain at the local state hospital and she has been working there for ten years or so. Usually they require an M.Div. and sometimes two to five classes in Clinical Pastoral Education, plus two or more years working in that field. Sometimes however they consider a related undergrad degree plus ordination equivalent to an M.Div. on their hiring standards. The pay is actually quite good from what I have seen. Has this option been seriously considered because it does seem viable. Perhaps even more so than military chaplaincy because one would not have to train to be an officer.
Man, I’m 24, I have this degree and I feel like I am impotent to make a way in this world. I’m looking for hope but I am not seeing much.